The Great Debate That Made the U.S. Constitution. Madison James

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Wednesday June 13.1 In Committee of the Whole

       Table of Contents

      Resol: 9 being resumed

      The latter parts of the clause relating to the jurisdiction of the National tribunals, was struck out nem. con in order to leave full room for their organization.

      Mr. Randolph & Mr. Madison, then moved the following resolution respecting a National Judiciary,viz "that the jurisdiction of the National Judiciary shall extend to cases, which respect the collection of the national revenue, impeachments of any national officers, and questions which involve the national peace and harmony" which was agreed to.

      Mr. Pinkney & Mr. Sherman moved to insert after the words "one supreme tribunal" the words "the Judges of which to be appointed by the National Legislature."

      Mr. Madison, objected to an appointment by the whole Legislature. Many of them were incompetent Judges of the requisite qualifications. They were too much influenced by their partialities. The candidate who was present, who had displayed a talent for business in the legislative field, who had perhaps assisted ignorant members in business of their own, or of their Constituents, or used other winning means, would without any of the essential qualifications for an expositor of the laws prevail over a competitor not having these recommendations, but possessed of every necessary accomplishment. He proposed that the appointment should be made by the Senate, which as a less numerous & more select body, would be more competent judges, and which was sufficiently numerous to justify such a confidence in them.

      Mr. Sherman & Mr. Pinkney withdrew their motion, and the appointment by the Senate was ag^d to nem. con.

      Mr. Gerry moved to restrain the Senatorial branch from originating money bills. The other branch was more immediately the representatives of the people, and it was a maxim that the people ought to hold the Purse-strings. If the Senate should be allowed to originate such bills, they would repeat the experiment, till chance should furnish a sett of representatives in the other branch who will fall into their snares.

      Mr. Butler saw no reason for such a discrimination. We were always following the British Constitution when the reason of it did not apply. There was no analogy between the H. of Lords and the body proposed to be established. If the Senate should be degraded by any such discriminations, the best men would be apt to decline serving in it in favor of the other branch. And it will lead the latter into the practice of tacking other clauses to money bills.

      Mr. Madison observed that the Comentators on the Brit: Const: had not yet agreed on the reason of the restriction on the H. of L. in money bills. Certain it was there could be no similar reason in the case before us. The Senate would be the representatives of the people as well as the 1st branch. If they said have any dangerous influence over it, they would easily prevail on some member of the latter to originate the bill they wished to be passed. As the Senate would be generally a more capable sett of men, it would be wrong to disable them from any preparation of the business, especially of that which was most important, and in our republics, worse prepared than any other. The Gentleman in pursuance of his principle ought to carry the restraint to the amendment, as well as the originating of money bills, since, an addition of a given sum would be equivalent to a distinct proposition of it.

      Mr. King differed from Mr. Gerry, and concurred in the objections to the proposition.

      Mr. Read favored the proposition, but would not extend the restraint to the case of amendments.

      Mr. Pinkney thinks the question premature. If the Senate should be formed on the same proportional representation as it stands at present, they said have equal power, otherwise if a different principle said be introduced.

      Mr. Sherman. As both branches must concur, there can be no danger whichever way the Senate be formed. We establish two branches in order to get more wisdom, which is particularly needed in the finance business — The Senate bear their share of the taxes, and are also the representatives of the people. What a man does by another, he does by himself is a maxim. In Connecticut both branches can originate in all cases, and it has been found safe & convenient. Whatever might have been the reason of the rule as to The H. of Lords, it is clear that no good arises from it now even there.

      General Pinkney. This distinction prevails in S. C. and has been a source of pernicious disputes between the 2 branches. The Constitution is now evaded, by informal schedules of amendments handed from the Senate to the other House.

      Mr. Williamson wishes for a question chiefly to prevent re-discussion. The restriction will have one advantage, it will oblige some member in the lower branch to move, & people can then mark him.

On the question for excepting money bills, as proposed by Mr. Gerry, Mass. no. Connecticut no. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. Del. ay. Maryland no. Virginia ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.2

      Committee rose & Mr. Ghorum made report, which was postponed till tomorrow, to give an opportunity for other plans to be proposed. The report was in the words following:

      Report of the Committee of Whole on Mr. Randolph's propositions.

      1. Resolved that it is the opinion of this Committee that a National Government ought to be established, consisting of a supreme Legislative, Executive & Judiciary.

      2. Resolved that the National Legislature ought to consist of two branches.

      3. Resolved that the members of the first branch of the National Legislature ought to be elected by the people of the several States for the term of three years, to receive fixed Stipends by which they may be compensated for the devotion of their time to public service, to be paid out of the National Treasury: to be ineligible to any office established by a particular State, or under the authority of the U. States, (except those peculiarly belonging to the functions of the first branch), during the term of service, and under the national Government for the Space of one year after its expiration.

      4. Resolved that the members of the second branch of the National Legislature ought to be chosen by the individual Legislatures, to be of the age of 30 years at least, to hold their offices for a term sufficient to ensure their independency, namely, seven years, to receive fixed stipends by which they may be compensated for the devotion of their time to public service to be paid out of the National Treasury; to be ineligible to any office established by a particular State, or under the authority of the U. States, (except those peculiarly belonging to the functions of the second branch) during the term of service, and under the National Government for the space of one year after its expiration.

      5. Resolved that each branch ought to possess the right of originating Acts.

      6. Resolved that the National Legislature ought to be empowered to enjoy the Legislative rights vested in Congress by the Confederation, and moreover to legislate in all cases to which the separate States are incompetent; or in which the harmony of the U. S. may be interrupted СКАЧАТЬ