The Formation & Evolution of the American Constitution. Madison James

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      Friday June 22. In Convention

       Table of Contents

      The clause in Resol. 3 "to receive fixed stipends to be paid out of the Nationonal Treasury" considered.

      Mr. Elseworth, moved to substitute payment by the States out of their own Treasurys: observing that the manners of different States were very different in the stile of living and in the profits accruing from the exercise of like talents. What would be deemed therefore a reasonable compensation in some States, in others would be very unpopular, and might impede the system of which it made a part.

      Mr. Williamson favored the idea. He reminded the House of the prospect of new States to the Westward. They would be too poor — would pay little into the common Treasury — and would have a different interest from the old States. He did not think therefore that the latter ought to pay the expences of men who would be employed in thwarting their measures & interests.

Mr. Ghorum1 wished not to refer the matter to the State Legislatures who were always paring down salaries in such a manner as to keep out of offices men most capable of executing the functions of them. He thought also it would be wrong to fix the compensations by the constitution, because we could not venture to make it as liberal as it ought to be without exciting an enmity against the whole plan. Let the National Legisl: provide for their own wages from time to time; as the State Legislatures do. He had not seen this part of their power abused, nor did he apprehend an abuse of it.

      Mr. Randolph said he feared we were going too far, in consulting popular prejudices. Whatever respect might be due to them, in lesser matters, or in cases where they formed the permanent character of the people, he thought it neither incumbent on nor honorable for the Convention, to sacrifice right & justice to that consideration. If the States were to pay the members of the National Legislature, a dependence would be created that would vitiate the whole System. The whole nation has an interest in the attendance & services of the members. The Nationonal Treasury therefore is the proper fund for supporting them.

      Mr. King, urged the danger of creating a dependence on the States by leaving to them the payment of the members of the National Legislature. He supposed it would be best to be explicit as to the compensation to be allowed. A reserve on that point, or a reference to the National Legislature of the quantum, would excite greater opposition than any sum that would be actually necessary or proper.

      Mr. Sherman contended for referring both the quantum and the payment of it to the State Legislatures.

      Mr. Wilson was against fixing the compensation as circumstances would change and call for a change of the amount. He thought it of great moment that the members of the National Government should be left as independent as possible of the State Governments in all respects.

      Mr. Madison concurred in the necessity of preserving the compensations for the National Government independent on the State Governments but at the same time approved of fixing them by the Constitution, which might be done by taking a standard which wouldnot vary with circumstances. He disliked particularly the policy suggested by Mr. Williamson of leaving the members from the poor States beyond the Mountains, to the precarious & parsimonious support of their constituents. If the Western States hereafter arising should be admitted into the Union, they ought to be considered as equals & as brethren. If their representatives were to be associated in the Common Councils, it was of common concern that such provisions should be made as would invite the most capable and respectable characters into the service.

      Mr. Hamilton apprehended inconveniency from fixing the wages. He was strenuous against making the National Council dependent on the Legislative rewards of the States. Those who pay are the masters of those who are paid. Payment by the States would be unequal as the distant States would have to pay for the same term of attendance and more days in travelling to & from the seat of the Government. He expatiated emphatically on the difference between the feelings & views of the people — & the Governments of the States arising from the personal interest & official inducements which must render the latter unfriendly to the General Government.

      Mr. Wilson moved that the Salaries of the 1st branch "be ascertained by the National Legislature," and be paid out of the National Treasury.

      Mr. Madison, thought the members of the Legislature too much interested to ascertain their own compensation. It would be indecent to put their hands into the public purse for the sake of their own pockets.

      On this question Mass. no. Connecticut no. N. Y. divd N. J. ay. Pennsylvania ay. Del. no. Maryland no. Virginia no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. divd.

      On the question for striking out "National Treasury" as moved by Mr. Elseworth.

      Mr. Hamilton renewed his opposition to it. He pressed the distinction between the State Governments & the people. The former would be the rivals of the General Government. The State legislatures ought not therefore to be the paymasters of the latter.

Mr. Elseworth. If we are jealous of the State Governments they will be so of us. If on going home I tell them we gave the Gen: Government such powers because we could not trust you. Will they adopt it, and without the approbation it is a nullity.2

Massachusetts ay. Connecticut ay. N. Y. divd. N. J. no. Pennsylvania no. Del. no. Maryland no. Virginia no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. divd.3

      On a question for substituting "adequate compensation" in place of "fixt stipends" it was agreed to nem. con. the friends of the latter being willing that the practicability of fixing the compensation should be considered hereafter in forming the details.

      It was then moved by Mr. Butler that a question be taken on both points jointly; to wit "adequate compensation to be paid out of the National Treasury." It was objected to as out of order, the parts having been separately decided on. The President refered the question of order to the House, and it was determined to be in order. Con. N. J. Del. Maryland N. C. S. C. — ay. — N. Y. Pennsylvania Virginia Geo. no. — Mass. divided. The question on the sentence was then СКАЧАТЬ