Plato: The Complete Works (31 Books). Plato

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СКАЧАТЬ Eudorus, who had the reputation of being the most celebrated wrestlers of that day. Do you remember them?

      ANYTUS: I have heard of them.

      SOCRATES: Now, can there be a doubt that Thucydides, whose children were taught things for which he had to spend money, would have taught them to be good men, which would have cost him nothing, if virtue could have been taught? Will you reply that he was a mean man, and had not many friends among the Athenians and allies? Nay, but he was of a great family, and a man of influence at Athens and in all Hellas, and, if virtue could have been taught, he would have found out some Athenian or foreigner who would have made good men of his sons, if he could not himself spare the time from cares of state. Once more, I suspect, friend Anytus, that virtue is not a thing which can be taught?

      ANYTUS: Socrates, I think that you are too ready to speak evil of men: and, if you will take my advice, I would recommend you to be careful. Perhaps there is no city in which it is not easier to do men harm than to do them good, and this is certainly the case at Athens, as I believe that you know.

      SOCRATES: O Meno, think that Anytus is in a rage. And he may well be in a rage, for he thinks, in the first place, that I am defaming these gentlemen; and in the second place, he is of opinion that he is one of them himself. But some day he will know what is the meaning of defamation, and if he ever does, he will forgive me. Meanwhile I will return to you, Meno; for I suppose that there are gentlemen in your region too?

      MENO: Certainly there are.

      SOCRATES: And are they willing to teach the young? and do they profess to be teachers? and do they agree that virtue is taught?

      MENO: No indeed, Socrates, they are anything but agreed; you may hear them saying at one time that virtue can be taught, and then again the reverse.

      SOCRATES: Can we call those teachers who do not acknowledge the possibility of their own vocation?

      MENO: I think not, Socrates.

      SOCRATES: And what do you think of these Sophists, who are the only professors? Do they seem to you to be teachers of virtue?

      MENO: I often wonder, Socrates, that Gorgias is never heard promising to teach virtue: and when he hears others promising he only laughs at them; but he thinks that men should be taught to speak.

      SOCRATES: Then do you not think that the Sophists are teachers?

      MENO: I cannot tell you, Socrates; like the rest of the world, I am in doubt, and sometimes I think that they are teachers and sometimes not.

      SOCRATES: And are you aware that not you only and other politicians have doubts whether virtue can be taught or not, but that Theognis the poet says the very same thing?

      MENO: Where does he say so?

      SOCRATES: In these elegiac verses (Theog.):

      ‘Eat and drink and sit with the mighty, and make yourself agreeable to them; for from the good you will learn what is good, but if you mix with the bad you will lose the intelligence which you already have.’

      Do you observe that here he seems to imply that virtue can be taught?

      MENO: Clearly.

      SOCRATES: But in some other verses he shifts about and says (Theog.):

      ‘If understanding could be created and put into a man, then they’ (who were able to perform this feat) ‘would have obtained great rewards.’

      And again:—

      ‘Never would a bad son have sprung from a good sire, for he would have heard the voice of instruction; but not by teaching will you ever make a bad man into a good one.’

      And this, as you may remark, is a contradiction of the other.

      MENO: Clearly.

      SOCRATES: And is there anything else of which the professors are affirmed not only not to be teachers of others, but to be ignorant themselves, and bad at the knowledge of that which they are professing to teach? or is there anything about which even the acknowledged ‘gentlemen’ are sometimes saying that ‘this thing can be taught,’ and sometimes the opposite? Can you say that they are teachers in any true sense whose ideas are in such confusion?

      MENO: I should say, certainly not.

      SOCRATES: But if neither the Sophists nor the gentlemen are teachers, clearly there can be no other teachers?

      MENO: No.

      SOCRATES: And if there are no teachers, neither are there disciples?

      MENO: Agreed.

      SOCRATES: And we have admitted that a thing cannot be taught of which there are neither teachers nor disciples?

      MENO: We have.

      SOCRATES: And there are no teachers of virtue to be found anywhere?

      MENO: There are not.

      SOCRATES: And if there are no teachers, neither are there scholars?

      MENO: That, I think, is true.

      SOCRATES: Then virtue cannot be taught?

      MENO: Not if we are right in our view. But I cannot believe, Socrates, that there are no good men: And if there are, how did they come into existence?

      SOCRATES: I am afraid, Meno, that you and I are not good for much, and that Gorgias has been as poor an educator of you as Prodicus has been of me. Certainly we shall have to look to ourselves, and try to find some one who will help in some way or other to improve us. This I say, because I observe that in the previous discussion none of us remarked that right and good action is possible to man under other guidance than that of knowledge (episteme);—and indeed if this be denied, there is no seeing how there can be any good men at all.

      MENO: How do you mean, Socrates?

      SOCRATES: I mean that good men are necessarily useful or profitable. Were we not right in admitting this? It must be so.

      MENO: Yes.

      SOCRATES: And in supposing that they will be useful only if they are true guides to us of action—there we were also right?

      MENO: Yes.

      SOCRATES: But when we said that a man cannot be a good guide unless he have knowledge (phrhonesis), this we were wrong.

      MENO: What do you mean by the word ‘right’?

      SOCRATES: I will explain. If a man knew the way to Larisa, or anywhere else, and went to the place and led others thither, would he not be a right and good guide?

      MENO: Certainly.

      SOCRATES: And a person who had a right opinion about the way, but had never been and did not know, might be a good guide also, might he not?

      MENO: Certainly.

      SOCRATES: And while he has true opinion about that which the other knows, he will be just as good a guide if he thinks the truth, as he who knows the truth?

      MENO: СКАЧАТЬ