THE COMPLETE WORKS OF PLATO. Plato

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СКАЧАТЬ grant anything you like, in the hope of hearing what more you have to say.

      SOCRATES: You do, then, mean, as I was saying, to come forward in a little while in the character of an adviser of the Athenians? And suppose that when you are ascending the bema, I pull you by the sleeve and say, Alcibiades, you are getting up to advise the Athenians—do you know the matter about which they are going to deliberate, better than they?—How would you answer?

      ALCIBIADES: I should reply, that I was going to advise them about a matter which I do know better than they.

      SOCRATES: Then you are a good adviser about the things which you know?

      ALCIBIADES: Certainly.

      SOCRATES: And do you know anything but what you have learned of others, or found out yourself?

      ALCIBIADES: That is all.

      SOCRATES: And would you have ever learned or discovered anything, if you had not been willing either to learn of others or to examine yourself?

      ALCIBIADES: I should not.

      SOCRATES: And would you have been willing to learn or to examine what you supposed that you knew?

      ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.

      SOCRATES: Then there was a time when you thought that you did not know what you are now supposed to know?

      ALCIBIADES: Certainly.

      SOCRATES: I think that I know tolerably well the extent of your acquirements; and you must tell me if I forget any of them: according to my recollection, you learned the arts of writing, of playing on the lyre, and of wrestling; the flute you never would learn; this is the sum of your accomplishments, unless there were some which you acquired in secret; and I think that secrecy was hardly possible, as you could not have come out of your door, either by day or night, without my seeing you.

      ALCIBIADES: Yes, that was the whole of my schooling.

      SOCRATES: And are you going to get up in the Athenian assembly, and give them advice about writing?

      ALCIBIADES: No, indeed.

      SOCRATES: Or about the touch of the lyre?

      ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.

      SOCRATES: And they are not in the habit of deliberating about wrestling, in the assembly?

      ALCIBIADES: Hardly.

      SOCRATES: Then what are the deliberations in which you propose to advise them? Surely not about building?

      ALCIBIADES: No.

      SOCRATES: For the builder will advise better than you will about that?

      ALCIBIADES: He will.

      SOCRATES: Nor about divination?

      ALCIBIADES: No.

      SOCRATES: About that again the diviner will advise better than you will?

      ALCIBIADES: True.

      SOCRATES: Whether he be little or great, good or ill-looking, noble or ignoble—makes no difference.

      ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.

      SOCRATES: A man is a good adviser about anything, not because he has riches, but because he has knowledge?

      ALCIBIADES: Assuredly.

      SOCRATES: Whether their counsellor is rich or poor, is not a matter which will make any difference to the Athenians when they are deliberating about the health of the citizens; they only require that he should be a physician.

      ALCIBIADES: Of course.

      SOCRATES: Then what will be the subject of deliberation about which you will be justified in getting up and advising them?

      ALCIBIADES: About their own concerns, Socrates.

      SOCRATES: You mean about shipbuilding, for example, when the question is what sort of ships they ought to build?

      ALCIBIADES: No, I should not advise them about that.

      SOCRATES: I suppose, because you do not understand shipbuilding:—is that the reason?

      ALCIBIADES: It is.

      SOCRATES: Then about what concerns of theirs will you advise them?

      ALCIBIADES: About war, Socrates, or about peace, or about any other concerns of the state.

      SOCRATES: You mean, when they deliberate with whom they ought to make peace, and with whom they ought to go to war, and in what manner?

      ALCIBIADES: Yes.

      SOCRATES: And they ought to go to war with those against whom it is better to go to war?

      ALCIBIADES: Yes.

      SOCRATES: And when it is better?

      ALCIBIADES: Certainly.

      SOCRATES: And for as long a time as is better?

      ALCIBIADES: Yes.

      SOCRATES: But suppose the Athenians to deliberate with whom they ought to close in wrestling, and whom they should grasp by the hand, would you, or the master of gymnastics, be a better adviser of them?

      ALCIBIADES: Clearly, the master of gymnastics.

      SOCRATES: And can you tell me on what grounds the master of gymnastics would decide, with whom they ought or ought not to close, and when and how? To take an instance: Would he not say that they should wrestle with those against whom it is best to wrestle?

      ALCIBIADES: Yes.

      SOCRATES: And as much as is best?

      ALCIBIADES: Certainly.

      SOCRATES: And at such times as are best?

      ALCIBIADES: Yes.

      SOCRATES: Again; you sometimes accompany the lyre with the song and dance?

      ALCIBIADES: Yes.

      SOCRATES: When it is well to do so?

      ALCIBIADES: Yes.

      SOCRATES: And as much as is well?

      ALCIBIADES: Just so.

      SOCRATES: And as you speak of an excellence or art of the best in wrestling, and of an excellence in playing the lyre, I wish you would tell me what this latter is;—the excellence of wrestling I call gymnastic, and I want to know what you call the other.

      ALCIBIADES: I do not understand you.

      SOCRATES: Then try to do as I do; for the answer which I gave is universally right, and when I say right, I mean according to rule.

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